Curse

FightingHamster · Apr 23, 2005, 11:43 PM // 23:43

I'm pretty new to the game, and wasn't able to try anything out during the beta weekends, so please bear with me here. First up, I have pretty much decided to go N/W; this thread isn't designed to discuss the efficiency/fun of the N/W, but specific builds.

Anyway, the two builds that I am currently looking at are:

12 Blood Magic/12 Sword/3 Soul Reaping

Life Transfer
Life Siphon
Vampiric Gaze
Demonic Flesh
Awaken the Blood
Hamstring
Final Thrust
Sever Artery

OR

11 Blood Magic/10 Sword/ 10 Curses/ 4 Soul Reaping
Life Transfer
Life Siphon
Vampiric Gaze
Barbs
Insidious Parasite
Hamstring
Final Thrust
Sever Artery

Thoughts? Criticism/help would be much appreciated. Thanks

Loviatar · Apr 23, 2005, 11:59 PM // 23:59

will the thoughts of an expert do?

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...6335#post36335

FightingHamster · Apr 24, 2005, 12:06 AM // 00:06

Not really, as it doesn't really apply/respond to my builds. The advice he gives, though great in its own right, also doesn't really apply to me as he gives advice about a PvE necro, which I will not be, and blasts PvP N/W, which I am already decided on regardless of how good they truly are. Heh, thanks though!

Loviatar · Apr 24, 2005, 12:12 AM // 00:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by FightingHamster

Not really, as it doesn't really apply/respond to my builds. The advice he gives, though great in its own right, also doesn't really apply to me as he gives advice about a PvE necro, which I will not be, and blasts PvP N/W, which I am already decided on regardless of how good they truly are. Heh, thanks though!

since he has the long term hands on experience the rest of us dont i thought his advice might carry some weight

also the comments from many others who PVP confirm what he says as regards to a pvp necro primary

try it have fun and dont say i did not warn you

tektonik · Apr 24, 2005, 12:20 AM // 00:20

Well at least you admit to playing a crappy combo.

JYX · Apr 24, 2005, 12:23 AM // 00:23

I'm just wondering...are you already in a Guild?

do you play to play that build in Arena or in GvG?

...because in all honesty...I think you're going to have trouble finding a good guild with a pvp blood necro...the demand for them isn't exactly great

Scaphism · Apr 24, 2005, 01:52 AM // 01:52

If you plan on using your sword you plan on fighting from melee range, and your weak armor is a serious liability.

You need to seriously consider tactics for a stance and the extra armor a shield will give you. Watch Yourself is a terrific skill that isn't getting the attention it deserves yet either.

As for your builds:
Drop awaken the blood on your first build. It only affects Life Siphon and Life Transfer, and the only thing it affects is the duration. Both are hexes and they will likely be removed if they are really bothering your target. Increasing the duration doesn't really help you any, and Awaken the Blood is taking up valuable space.

On your second build:
Life Siphon only gets it's third pip at 12 blood magic. Essentially, it's useless at 11 blood, so make sure you get your blood magic to at least 12.

Finally, if you're playing a necromancer and you're not using Rend Enchantments, you've either suffered major head trauma recently or you're about to in the near future. It's just that important.

Ander Deathblade · Apr 24, 2005, 02:03 AM // 02:03

I think you just need to realize that while Ensign and Nash and others know much about pvp compared to most of you, they are far from omniscient and necromancers are not necessarily useless in pvp. I would think KOR would not play with a Necro in their teams if they didnt think they had their place. They wouldn't be using what is dubbed here an absolutely horrible class, with soul barbs, dubbed here as absolutely terrible skill, if they thought it did not have its use. Not that they know everything. It's just a whole bunch of evolution and improvement coming, that none of us know anything of at the moment.

So make your builds to do what you like best. A shitty build can be better than a better build, as long as you enjoy it and play it well. As long as you don't mistake your energy levels for infinite, make your build and improve where you need to. Taking advice from these guys is good, but they didn't invent GW. At the moment, the best strategy is delegating specific tasks to specific chars, as its easier to produce and easier to organize. As groups get better, this will change, and their opinions will also change.

keep that in mind. nothing is set in stone.

FireMarshal · Apr 24, 2005, 04:13 AM // 04:13

There is nothing wrong with taking Necro primary. As long as he has fun with it. I personally, and a couple of my guildmates have played a n/w and it is very fun, just make good use of skills from Tactics.

Diamondspider · Apr 24, 2005, 04:17 AM // 04:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by FireMarshal

There is nothing wrong with taking Necro primary. As long as he has fun with it. I personally, and a couple of my guildmates have played a n/w and it is very fun, just make good use of skills from Tactics.

If you are interested in PvP and choose a combo that will have armor problems for no reason other than... the combo and it thusly gimped, I'm not sure how fun that will be.

Still better to be safe than sorry when it comes to having to spend 25 hours redoing your character due to a mistake.

This combo doesn't seem super weak to me, personally, but then I'm not planning on winning the top ladder spot

FireMarshal · Apr 24, 2005, 03:49 PM // 15:49

Quote:

If you are interested in PvP and choose a combo that will have armor problems for no reason other than... the combo and it thusly gimped, I'm not sure how fun that will be.

It seems your(and others) idea of fun is different than mine. I dont play a build just because everyone else and their dog is doing it too. As long as someone is having fun playing, it doesnt really matter what they choose to build.

The build is not wholly gimped in that as a n/w you have much larger energy pool to work off of. I found that a n/w is one of the most versatile classes in the game. You can slap on the defense and get into the fray, you can harass casters, you can buff up your mates, strip enchantments, plus more stuff.

I think it just may be that I dont take the game as seriously as some of you do, just as long as I am having fun.

-FM

Asher · Apr 24, 2005, 11:02 PM // 23:02

Exactly and like I posted in another thread started by Blitzkrieg, I played a pure Necro (no secondary), with Blood,Curses and Death maxed, Iwent down twice and that build and our team held HoH thru 4 battles.

So don't knock it unless you've actually played it for more than five minutes.

Asher Out

walder · Apr 24, 2005, 11:31 PM // 23:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asher

Exactly and like I posted in another thread started by Blitzkrieg, I played a pure Necro (no secondary), with Blood,Curses and Death maxed, Iwent down twice and that build and our team held HoH thru 4 battles.

So don't knock it unless you've actually played it for more than five minutes.

Asher Out

Roger, Roger...
Whether you die or not doesn't really say anything about you or your character. The question is, who where you playing against? Just because you know how to avoid the action and stand in the back doesn't mean your good. And as far as I know, I never needed Blood, Curses, and Death "maxed" to be an effective debuffer. Maybe Mes/Nec with a few points in Curses for Enfeeble, Sof, and Rend if you want to extend it to that.

Walder Out...

Scaphism · Apr 25, 2005, 09:11 AM // 09:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ander Deathblade

I think you just need to realize that while Ensign and Nash and others know much about pvp compared to most of you, they are far from omniscient and necromancers are not necessarily useless in pvp. I would think KOR would not play with a Necro in their teams if they didnt think they had their place.

None of us claim to be omniscient, but you're pulling a magic trick on us, asking us to watch one hand while the other is doing something behind your back.

Ensign, Nash, "and others" are here giving their advice to everyone on their boards. We do our homework and run our numbers through scenarios.

It's all well and good to admire KOR from afar, but they are not here sharing their builds with us. From what I have heard, KOR was successful running a 4 Warrior 4 Monk build, and when that got countered, they added one mesmer. I don't see a necro anywhere in there. Furthermore, their success is based in good part on great coordination and teamwork.

Just because a good team has some success with a build does not therefore mean the build is strong.
Let's try and respect the resources we have here, instead of worshipping idols from afar.

That said, necromancers are not awful, and the problems have been discussed ad nauseum here.
The core of the necromancer's problem is that anything a primary necro can do, a secondary necro can do just as well. Their primary attribute is bad, and there's little reason to want a maxed out necro attribute, so their runes are mostly useless as well.
It's not that all necro skills are trash- it's just that there's no convincing reason to put them on a necro primary.

And frankly, I'm surprised that "Ensign, Nash, and others" continue to give solid advice in the face of stuch unrelenting obstinacy. If you stopped to analyze what a nercromancer has to offer on the highest competetive level, and realize that is the only thing high level build making is concerned with, then you'd be quick to dismiss primary necromancers as well.

Go out and enjoy your necromancer builds. The game is built for fun. Come back and ask for a serious critique of your builds when you are ready handle being told that they are not perfect and need to be improved.

Jackell · Apr 25, 2005, 11:13 AM // 11:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by FightingHamster

this thread isn't designed to discuss the efficiency/fun of the N/W, but specific builds.

Can we just once have a necro thread without the argument about whether they suck or not hijacking the thread?

tektonik · Apr 25, 2005, 01:57 PM // 13:57

Because they do suck?

SR? Worthless there goes half your reason to play N/W over W/n in PvP. The other half is mana pool and regen but any warrior skills you pick now will lack in damage from armor penetration. Now you are going to rely on a caster armor doing subpar melee damage who is relying on spells(Curses or Blood) to try to make up that damage with 80% of the time being 2sec or greater casts.... Do you see the issues that are going to occur once you step out of the playground of Tombs?

For those of you trying to defend these DoTs.....For one you are not going to be targeted much so half the efficiency of LT and LS are gone. Secondly in GvG 70% of all kills are the result of quick spike damage to a target so DoTs lose value because they need time to work so you never really use them when you kill someone.

At the very least if you are dead set on necro bring Rend Enchantments and spec 3-4 in curses. Then you can at least have a good value to your team and not be dead weight.

Ensign · Apr 25, 2005, 05:36 PM // 17:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jackell

Can we just once have a necro thread without the argument about whether they suck or not hijacking the thread?

I can see that happening here if we're discussing secondary Necromancers, and what the best skills to use on them would be. A discussion about which Necro skills are worth using is probably a good idea, in fact.

Anything regarding primary Necromancers is doomed to failure here, I'd think. A thread about actually effective primary Necros, for instance, would inevitibly have some 'I had success in Tombs with this terrible Necro build' reply in the first ten posts, and off we go again.

This is build discussion, after all, and we have people here who are trying to help people make the most effective build possible. So as long as any primary Necro thread is going to include 'Primary Necros are AWESOME' we get to have this same conversation over and over again.

Peace,
-CxE

Jackell · Apr 25, 2005, 10:00 PM // 22:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

I can see that happening here if we're discussing secondary Necromancers, and what the best skills to use on them would be. A discussion about which Necro skills are worth using is probably a good idea, in fact.

Anything regarding primary Necromancers is doomed to failure here, I'd think. A thread about actually effective primary Necros, for instance, would inevitibly have some 'I had success in Tombs with this terrible Necro build' reply in the first ten posts, and off we go again.

This is build discussion, after all, and we have people here who are trying to help people make the most effective build possible. So as long as any primary Necro thread is going to include 'Primary Necros are AWESOME' we get to have this same conversation over and over again.

Yeah, I can see your point here. It's shame every necro primary thread has to deteriorate into this, but it is agreed. Same pattern that follows the other threads. Well, if it will be usefull, I'll create a necro secondary thread, that way I can contribute more than just arguing with you about what's worthless and what isn't.

Ander Deathblade · Apr 25, 2005, 10:43 PM // 22:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scaphism

None of us claim to be omniscient, but you're pulling a magic trick on us, asking us to watch one hand while the other is doing something behind your back.

I don't play magicks, Scaphism. I say what I mean, and I mean what I say. I did not say that any of you claimed to be omniscient, the problem is not yours, it is theirs. They should not stop playing a Necro because "Ensign said they're crappy". Don't get your panties in a bunch 'cause I didn't mention you.

Quote:

Ensign, Nash, "and others" are here giving their advice to everyone on their boards. We do our homework and run our numbers through scenarios.

That's great. I read the advice with interest and take note of it. That's why I like this site. Much knowledge, little messing about with trivial crap. I never said you cats knew nothing, I wouldn't post here if I thought that.

Quote:

It's all well and good to admire KOR from afar, but they are not here sharing their builds with us. From what I have heard, KOR was successful running a 4 Warrior 4 Monk build, and when that got countered, they added one mesmer. I don't see a necro anywhere in there. Furthermore, their success is based in good part on great coordination and teamwork.

Yes, they are not sharing their builds with you, you being the key word. Of course, I agree their success is based on their teamwork and their skill in execution of their tactics.

Quote:

Just because a good team has some success with a build does not therefore mean the build is strong.
Let's try and respect the resources we have here, instead of worshipping idols from afar.

The skills are balanced on their optimal use. That is why Strength, if you really look at it, is such an absolutely terrible primary attribute. Because its optimal use would be overpowered if it was any more powerful. This is also why the Necromancer skills in question are so crappy. If they were any more powerful, their optimal use would mean total devastation. Why do you think the devs haven't given Necros a sizable boost?

Quote:

That said, necromancers are not awful, and the problems have been discussed ad nauseum here.
The core of the necromancer's problem is that anything a primary necro can do, a secondary necro can do just as well. Their primary attribute is bad, and there's little reason to want a maxed out necro attribute, so their runes are mostly useless as well.

At least, for the current combo insight we have.

Quote:

It's not that all necro skills are trash- it's just that there's no convincing reason to put them on a necro primary.

well, if not for swordsmanship (which I need maxed with runes), I would pretty much feel the same way about Warrior. Strength is awful. but it adds to damage, aka the optimal use.

Quote:

And frankly, I'm surprised that "Ensign, Nash, and others" continue to give solid advice in the face of stuch unrelenting obstinacy. If you stopped to analyze what a nercromancer has to offer on the highest competetive level, and realize that is the only thing high level build making is concerned with, then you'd be quick to dismiss primary necromancers as well.

unrelenting obstinacy? where did you find that? I did not insult you, Ensign, Nash, or "others", I merely said you are not omniscient. Truth hurts? Am I supposed to say "oh, Nash said Soul Barbs is a terrible skill, so it must be true". If so, I'm sure your "not claiming to be omniscient" statement was a bit of a stretch. I respect opinions, and I will change my opinion on something if I am pointed it out. but I will not blindly follow anyone in his ideas, and you are wrong to expect it so.

Quote:

Go out and enjoy your necromancer builds. The game is built for fun. Come back and ask for a serious critique of your builds when you are ready handle being told that they are not perfect and need to be improved.

As a last touch, a person who really wants to be a Necromancer, will be more useful as a Necromancer than he is as a Shock Sniper. That's what I'm saying. KOR wins because of their execution mainly, your best execution ALWAYS comes from your favorite character combination, and if your tactics are adapted to it, you'll be far better than the team that made the exact same build KOR won with, against their nature.

tektonik · Apr 25, 2005, 10:56 PM // 22:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ander Deathblade

...
At least, for the current combo insight we have.well, if not for swordsmanship (which I need maxed with runes), I would pretty much feel the same way about Warrior. Strength is awful. but it adds to damage, aka the optimal use.

...

This alone to me has made all other points you made invalid. Armor Pentration is what makes KOR's build work as well as every other war centric team build. YOu seem to lack the insight of same basic information to ackowledge this tho.